msnbc pois come. >> that's all for now. i'm chrisman son, for ahanson. for all of us at nbc news. thanks for joining us. good morning from new york, i'm chris hayes, talking about new developments incillin d syl >> rick perry said he does not think romney's religion is a cult. we are going to start with the national explosion of

"occupy wall street" movement. on september 16th, a few hundred people came to a tiny square in downtown manhattan with a promise to occupy wall street. we sent a producer and got mostly footage by a few dozen sleeping bags. by last week, the ranks of those participating in the event had swelled to around 1,000. the movement spread to boston, los angeles, washington, d.c., sfrae san francisco and chicago. this past week, thousands of union members and allies and others came out to join with the occupiers and the movement or protest or happening or whatever the heck it is has now spread to over 60 cities in the country, from seattle, to memphis to wichita, kansas. if not the whole world, at least the whole country is watching. they are planning an international day of solidarity for october 15th. i've been spending time downtown and talking to a lot of folks about it who are not downtown. they all seem to have the same questions. what does it mean?

what do they want? where is it headed? the reason the protests are working. the reason they have exploded. the reason they are getting people's attention is because they have tapped into something deep and profound about the national mood. people feel at their core betrayed. we are going through a period of disillusionment when the unfairness of the system is all around us. that's why people have been showing up in downtown manhattan. it is why they want to watch about it on the tv. in terms of what they are actually doing down there and the quests for demands or what they actually want, i think it is more helpful to think about what's going on with occupy wall street in this way. successful social movements innovate. they create new kinds of politics. this he roo he form what we think politics look like. consider this. not taking the bus is not a political act until someone makes it a political act in montgomery. burning a bra is a completely indecipherable bizarre thing to do in 1890 but by 1965 or 1970,

it has a very specific and pointed meaning. even the simple act of getting married, the most mundane, private action two people can take on, has a profound and radical political meaning when those two people are of the same sex. none of these things were political acts until new movements made them into political acts. we spent a lot of time talking about steve jobs and we will talk about him later in the show. jobs had this amazing show. he said, it is not the customer's job to know what he wants. the idea being that it was jobs' job and apple's job to come up with something new, something people didn't realize they wanted until it appeared. that's a lesson, i think, from occupy wall street. we didn't know what we were missing until it was there. joining us now to talk more about "occupy wall street" naomi klein and van jones. great to have you both here.

>> good morning. >> so you guys have both been down there. >> sure have. >> i will start off with a little check-in about what the mood is like down there. you have both addressed the general assembly or pregeneral assembly. how would you describe the mood down there? >> first of all, it is so good to be able to talk and not have to talk in four lines. when you go down there, you have to say, hello, my name, hello my name, hello my name. it is amazing. what was impossible two weeks ago in america is now possible. we were getting beaten down so hard. if you kick a corpse enough times, it will switch. we were getting our butts kicked all across the country. we weren't even twitching. now, it feels like because it these young people are willing to stand up and say, enough is enough, the mood down there is unbelievable. the spirit down there is unbelievable. it is not just occupation physically.

it is the liber rarg acroation country in terms of our imaginations. >> this has become a national thing? >> yes. >> part of what's amazing about technology is the degree to which -- i remember watching what was going on in tahrir square on twitter. obviously, he wasn't in tahrir square. it lent an mediacy to what was happening. i just saw there. they were actually there. you actually read it in your little computer machine. there was a proximity created that i never had felt before. it feels like this part of what's happening here is that this little physical space is sort of spreading out partly through that reason. >> it is a wide open political space. it is like people were just waiting to be invited. and they have just come flooding in. it is also this idea that's bigger than the actual physical space. even if people are cleared out of that space, it is definitely not going to go away. it is going to reemerge. it is extraordinary. the only thing i have ever seen like it is when i was in

argentina after the economic crisis there, which was unbelievably profound. the country defaulted. they went through five governments, five presidents in three weeks. when i went to bu knoenos aires they said, we got rid of the politicians and now it's our problem. that's what it feels like at "occupy wall street." first, this hunger and determination. i don't think the spirit is just anti-wall street. it really is about the combination of wall street and washington. it is the spirit of those spanish students who call themselves the indig nent ones. they are indignant about the corruption of their democracy. they tried to achieve change through the political process. this is the obama generation,

the people who thought they could vote for change and worked really hard. they are realizing the system is broken. they are going where the money is and where the power is. they are outing who is pulling the strings but not letting the politicians off the hook. >> that tees upper effectually. the president was asked about "objecti "occupy wall street." the president was asked and we have his response right here. >> i think it expresses the frustratifro frustrations that the american people feel. that we had the biggest financial crisis since the great depression, huge collateral damage all throughout the country, all across main street. and yet you are still seeing some of the same folks who acted irresponsibly trying to fight

efforts to crack down on abusive practices that got us into this problem in the first place. i think people are frustrated and the protesters are giving voice to a more broad-based frustration. >> i think the president still doesn't understand that people don't want empathy from him. they want action. he is still making the same mistake, like, i feel your pain. he is the president. people are not just upset that the same interests are working against regulation. that's what they do. they are upset they are getting away with it. that's the political side of the equation. >> i want to ask you this. i think, first of all, hilariously, my producer, jonathan larson, right before we came on, notified me that the report is running a headline saying obama winks at the protesters as if this statement was some strong expression of solidarity. ben, you work in the white house. i wonder, do you feel there is a

tension between supporting "occupy wall street" and being in solidarity with what they are trying to accomplish and agreeing with their vision and supporting the president of the united states at the helm of this system which is naomi and i think the protesters and most of the people i have talked to down there think is fundamentally broken and corrupt i believe. >> i don't think so. first of all, both the political and financial elite in the country have failed. we are getting a report card from the people on the entire elite of the country. wall street and -- not wall street but washington, d.c. you used to say wall street. everybody would get sad and grumpy. now, when they say wall street, everybody smiles. the occupiers on wall street are great. the entire political financial elite has failed to address the misery of the country, the unopposed demolition of the middle class, the unopposed

demolition of the working class, the abandonment of the poor is going on at a pace. meanwhile, there is food fight politics and nonsense in d.c. and wall street is worse than ever. i think that what's going on now is the young people out there, the struggling folks who are out there, they may not yet have message clarity from a d.c. point of view but they have moral clarity. that moral clarity is sounding atone that resonates with obama's original base and far beyond. i think that you are going to see increasingly the people who voted for obama, 2008, supportive of enthus yacht tick about what these young people are doing. i think you are going to see the conversation open up in terms of what needs to happen in the country. the president has taken a more populous tone, because he is talking different, because people are walking different. i think it shows that people will lead and the politicians may follow. >> he may be talking different, because he is running for re-election soon.

i am not so sure. we heard very similar rhetoric from him during the 2008 campaign. then, we heard a lot less of it when he was in office. i do think that -- >> don't you blame us for that? >> i know you say this, van. i know that you say this. yes, i can. yes, we can. the message people got for the first two years of the campaign was, give the guy a chance. >> sure. >> that was the message coming from inside the white house. we have heard, again and again, a very dismissive tone. listen, i agree with you. we should have been in the streets from day one. this is a delayed reaction. it is a delayed reaction to the obama moment. no, i don't believe it is that we weren't supporting the president enough. i hold obama accountable for the fact that he appointed larry summers and kept on tim geithner and that he has presided over not just failure to regulate the banks but also the passing on of the bill for this crisis to

regular people across the country. i think that just saying, it is our fault and it wasn't, yes, i can, it was yes, we can, it is too easy, because i believe in political accountability. >> i also think it is too easy. we are going to get to this just in a second. i think it is too easy when we are proportioning blame. i want to be specific about our accounting of it. you use the phrase food fight politics in washington. i want to come back to that and talk about the political parties and what george carlin would think about "occupy wall street" we found this great clip that might give us some idea. that's coming up. or when you're distracted? when you're falling asleep at the wheel? do you know how you'll react? lexus can now precisely test the most unpredictable variable in a car -- the driver. when you pursue perfection, you don't just engineer the world's most advanced driving simulator.

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>>. >> the real owners, the big

wealthy businessmen, forget the politicians. they are put there to give you the idea you have freedom of choice. you don't. you have owners. they own you. they own everything. they own all the important land. they own and control the corporations. they have long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, it city halls. they have the judges in the back pockets and on all the big media companies. so they control just about all the news and information you get to here. >> we cut that clip right at an op per tune moment since we are on one of those big companies. he says all politicians are there to give you an illusion of choice. the reason i wanted to play that clip. we played this because i was down talking to people at "occupy wall street." you heard this same kind of thing again and again, rejecting party affiliations, partisan identity and idealogical affiliation, left or right. i talked to a guy on thursday, andy smith. i want to play you what he said to me down there.

>> it is not right and left? >> we are up and down. i know that's -- that could be scary for some people to here. i realize that. it is about class. it is not about political party. class is the divide. people can unite around class. they can't unite around political parties or race or religion. it's easy to unite. >> i worry about it. i pressed him. we had a good conversation about this. you end up in a place of sort of political an nileism. if you say they are all the same, this is a very familiar american attitude. you hear this all the time from the disaffected, from independents, they are all the same, all corrupt, all bought and paid for. you hear a lot of that down on wall street. i wonder whether that does let people off the hook precisely. >> the but the thing is, when you get -- i have a second

grader. when he gets his report card, there is a reality to it. he may say, the teacher doesn't like me. both parties, in the face of the biggest economic catastrophe since the great depression, have failed to respond effectively. the democrats had 60 votes in the senate, obama in the president and the best speaker ever, pelosi, running the house and they were unable to respond effectively. now, we are in a situation where it looks like we had a change in election. i think we have to take seriously the fact that something is wrong. d.c. is off the rails. d.c. has been stuck on stupid for months now as a pain threshold has gotten worse. that's not neoism, that's pain. >> let me play devil's advocate for one second. they passed an $800 billion recovery act. >> which should have been twice as big. >> yes, about you was also larger than anything passed during the great depression as a single act of congress. they passed dodd/frank, which

there are all sorts of problems with dodd/frank, the financial reform bill. they fought tooth and nail. the path of least resistance would have been to do nothing. they passed health care. i no he these litanies are familiar but i want to lay it out. they passed health care, which again the path of least resistance would have been not to pass health care but just leave it alone. they fought and fought and took huge political losses and expended tremendous of political capital. seems like if you say they are both -- here is what they didn't do. >> this is something naomi was trying to say earlier and i would like to underscore. we didn't mobilize the people. there was a lot of subcommittee stuff, a lot of inside the beltway baseball talk and public options and that kind of stuff. what makes a difference in america is what you are seeing right now. when people are given the idea that their participation, demonstration, visible support, we spent 2 1/2 years. we are the only people who marched and protested in

america. we are the right wing. it turns out as the tea party proved and as young people and struggling folks on wall street are proving, public demonstration matters. there was a sense from the administration, from the d.c. democrats that you need to sit down, shut up and we will deal with them. i think it turned out that was wrong. i think that's important. >> i cut you off, naomi. i'm sorry. >> i think what people are rejecting there is the idea that they are just kind of the street heat for the democratic party. right? that they are just there to make obama do it. it is a deeper structural critique. i think what's best and most fun and most refreshing about hanging out at "occupy wall street." >> the circles and free hugs. >> aside from that. >> so much tofu. >> they issued a statement that said to the guys at wall street, not everyone wants a hug. >> that is awesome.

>> the thing that was fun about being down there -- >> is that they are not talking about big "p" politics inside baseball, the election campaign. i think the problem, thinking about what they are doing is going to affect 2012. they are focusing on the issues. it isn't your only job, though. i think this country is more obsessed with electoral politics than any other in the world, i believe. it is corrupting and core roe sieve to the building of social movements. what happens is every two years, whatever independent movements are being built, whether it is about climate change or the war or inequality, gets completely funneled into let's get the democrats elected. i think what's interesting about this moment is that people are talking about what is structurally wrong. they are talking about money and politics. they are talking about citizens united and talking about the idea that corporations have the same status as people.

so what is structurally wrong. that's very exciting. so i think the concern is the idea that we are just going to -- we're just going to be the angry arm of the democratic party and you can just turn this outrage into some very reformist pieces of legislation, where they want to get at the core of it, why is it broken? that's what's exciting. >> i agree but i would note that the anger on the right was channeled into electoral channels and it was extremely effective. they primaried a bunch of folks and knocked off the incumbent republicans and now essentially control the agenda of the republican party in an incredibly effective way that has produced electoral gains. i have to get to this and it is so tempting to say, up now, the 2012 elections.

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flexpen, insulin delivery that goes with you. my story of the week, stut dent get bomb. we have talked about "occupy wall street" and what students want. maybe you have seen this. it is called the 99%. it consists of regular people with small notes describing the economic hardships they face. these are the faces of people who can't make it to wall street to protest, who are juggling more than one jobs or trying to make ends meet while they battle a catastrophic illness. middle-aged people laid off struggling under the emotional weight of unemployment. one issue that keeps cropping up is student debt. here is one that reads, 21-year-old soon to be college grad with $100,000 of debt in my name, no health care yet,

mounting health care bills, no job, no hope. we are the 99%. >> i have a bachelor's degree, $37,000 in college debt, unemployed and cannot find work. at age 39, i'm living in my mother's basement. >> i stayed in school hoping the economy would rebound. with my family too broke to pay, i took out loans, seven years, two degrees and $60,000 in debt, i am the 99%. >> i have heard the same thing for the protesters at "occupy wall street." it is a complained that echos across the various college campuses. it is more than an he canecdot . student debt stands out as the only kind of credit to expand in the wake of the financial crisis. the class of 2011 is the most indebted group of graduates ever with an average of almost $23,000 in debt. that's 9% more than just last

year. a staggering 47% more than a decade ago. much of what's driving this growth is the fact that students are told the only path to financial security is higher education. here is president obama making exactly that case. >> the fact of the matter is that more than 60% of the jobs in the next decade will require more than a high school diploma. more than 60%. that's the world you are walking into. >> so millions of students have taken out loans to improve themselves, getting associates degrees and bachelors' degrees and master's degree. this he are finding it is for naught, because they can't make it through the course or they do make it through and find out, surprise, they still can't get a job. it is not just young people. they are going back for further training in degrees and finding similar results. others are carrying student debt only to be laid off and find they can only make their payments. >> this means we have seen

delinquencies going up at an alarming rate. now, more than 1 in 10 or 90 days delinquent and more. the only kind of debt with a higher dell ingwency rate are credit cards. remember, this is the kicker. student loans cannot be disposed of even in bankruptcy. thanks in part to the wonderful bankruptcy reform act passed in 2005 with the help of the banks. like a pre-existing condition or a cruel thing you once said to someone you love, student debt will haunt you for the rest of your life. for those who take on large amount of student debt, there is a special kind of betrayal at work and special anger and disillusionment that comes with it. when you talk about the academic levels of foreclosures and the hardships of underwater homeowners, the right will give you a response like rick santelli's famous rant. >> this is america. how many of you people want to pay for your neighbor's mortgage that has an extra bathroom and can't pay their bills? raise their hand. >> the idea there is that people

in trouble have only themselves to blame. they got greedy. they wanted a bigger bathroom and an extra bathroom. whatever you think about housing debt, the tea party view of those of debt does not apply to student debt. here are people who didn't get greedy for a bigger house or jacuzzi. they were trying to better themselves. they did what we as a society told them to do. go out, acquire skills, get an ed skag education, invest. the society didn't hold up its end. you might say they took a risk by taking on debt. the risk didn't pay off. too bad. that's how things work. of course, the banks made billions of dollars in bad bes.s the government was there with hundreds of billions of dollars. the federal reserve came running to the rescue lending them money to make sure they made it through the tough times. if we cared as much about students as we do about banks, we would give students the same

deal. joining naomi klein and van johnson, tim carne, senior political columnist for the examiner and journalist maria pinosa, host of "need to know." tim, i want to talk to you about student debt. what is your roo he spons to the argument i was just making there. when you talk about housing debt, there are people who say, a lot of people on the right who say, people are greedy. it does seem hard to make that argument with student debt. >> i thought you put it well out there. you have an 18-year-old who is being told, borourow this money. i didn't understand that when i was 18. that's what was expected by my school, public school, that's sort of what we are told. it has been the policy, not only the government cultural expectations. everybody should be going to college and borrowing to go to

collage. that drives up the price and the expectations it will pay off in the end. it is a bit of a racket. you have government policy going back to the cold war and great society that are making kids getting indebted the effective policy of our government. >> you are saying because the student loans are subsidized by the government. >> they are subsidized in all sorts of ways. >> here is what's weird about it. the price, the market should be functioning like this. there are a lot of people. the population is growing. there is more young people. we need to produce more college graduates. more schools spring up. there is competition between them and that drives down the price. instead, what we are seeing is the opposite. >> that's what some cities do. they drive up the price tag. it is supposed to be making it more affordable. it makes college able to charge more. consumers are not price sensitive. >> the subsidies have been there since the beginning. the price keeps getting bid up. this mismatch is happening. if you talk to any parent, if you talk to a parent and say,

what is the number one issue? my wife is going to have a kid in seven weeks. yeah, it is awesome. you start thinking, this is a huge part of the sort of fundamental core middle class economic anxiety that exists. from the time you get the positive test and you go for the 12-week sonogram, in the back of the head, you are thinking about how you are going to fit the bill for college. when i did the math, it is going to be like $2 million. >> the reality is that life takes over. you got a kid. you have got to buy this. you have to buy that. the whole notion i am just going to put away and have the time to put away and meet with people and plan my economic future. americans are working so hard, we don't have the time to sit and figure it out. the majority of the people still

get stuck. i feel like my kids were born yesterday. they are about 16 and 13. we are like, okay, let's see what happens and let's figure it out and get really good grades so that maybe you can get a scholarship. >> we have too much in expectation to go to college. what we need to happen is the college bubble. there needs to be. >> more people working at mcdonald's. >> more employers understanding that a college degree, my friend, megan mccardle, put it right, something like a four-year resort with a sideline in academic research. >> it is a dangerous thing to bring out when you have a 49% latino dropout in the country. the message of, you don't have that -- you want to start a business, go, let's do it. but a message that says, it is going to be too expensive, wrong, wrong, wrong. congresswoman carolyn maloney is going to join us on set right after this. for her neighbour's

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joining us now democratic congresswoman carolyn maloney, klugman hat tan's upper east side, home to the 1% that we have been hearing so much about. >> thank you for inviting me, chris. >> good to have you. i read a report you were down talking to the "occupy wall street" folks. you kind of bestride the two world's, you have some 99% in your district and some 1%. what do you make of what's going on down there? >> i was there on wednesday at foley square. they were very frustrated and angry about the financial crisis and the hope they don't see for their future. i met students that had huge student loans and no jobs, people that have lost is there homes or thele values have gone down, labor workers who were afraid they were going to lose their job. they are calling upon people like me and all of us at this table to do something about it, to listen to their concerns and

act on them. i think we should take their frustrations to washington and pat's the president's jobs bill and get this economy moving again. >> the city council of los angeles just passed a resolution in support of "occupy l.a." >> but our mayor and your con stitt went, michael bloomberg, we have a little bit of a sound about what he had to say about what's going on.

>> done gress >> congresswoman, what do you think about that comment? >> i think the mayor doesn't like disorder. i think he is as proud as every new yorker is of our right to exercise our first amendment. we have a long history of peaceful, legal protests. but we also have a long history of maintaining order. we have to have that balance so that people can go to work and pay the taxes that support the workers in new york. so we need -- what i saw was a respectful police officers working with the crowd. what i saw was very organized and approved and people expressing their frustrations. that's a long american tradition. >> this is what democracy looks like ultimately. >> to me, i am just so happy that at least in my home, where i have kids, two teenage kids and i am like, what do you think about the protests? interestingly, they are watching it. at the same time, this is what worries me, is for kids to say but i'm a little scared, because

if i go down there, the police are arresting people. i said, you know what, you have to go, this is your responsibility. you have to see it. this is what parents should be teaching their kids. the image, the sentiment that maybe it is dangerous to take part in democracy i think is problematic. >> aren't they talking about something more than the democratic process? when i was in d.c. at freedom plaza, one of the people said, wait a second, why are we asking for permission where we can sleep? this is supposed to be an occupation. there is a radical tone of what's going on. if you are applying for a park permit and being perfectly peaceful and just doing the democratic process. >> you don't get any attention. >> what g.e. and boeing are doing is gaming the democratic process. they have to make up their minds. is this a radical occupation or just something to get attention for what is going to be a lobbying effort to pass the

president's jobs bill? >> i think a lot of the media and policymakers have been unfair. eric cantor called him a mob. >> let me play that. >> i would like to sea that. he didn't call the tea party a mob. >> no, that was nancy pelosi. >> he didn't call the people protesting the health care bill when they were yelling "kill it, kill it, kill it". >> or spitting on african-american congress people and that kind of thing. >> so this is eric cantor. let me know what we have it. cantor was, i think he was speaking somewhere yesterday. he had this to say. he was quite strong about what was going on. this is the tape. >> i, for one, am increasingly concerned about the growing mobs occupying wall street and the other cities across the country. believe it or not, some in this town have actually condoned the pitting of americans against

americans. >> quit picking on the tea party. >> pitting americans against americans. we have congresswoman carolyn mall maloney here. we will be right back. [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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we are back with tim carney and maria hinojosa and congresswoman carolyn maloney. we just talked about the clip of pitting americans against americans. i want to hear you address that. there is a degree to which the point of these protests, when they say we are the 99%, is to go after the 1%. there is an inherent confrontational nature to this politics. does eric cantor have a point? >> well, i think we are all in this together. if people around employed, then there is no one there to by-products, to go to banks to

keep our economy moving. we all need to be part of the solution. we can not continue, chris, where the government is spending 25% of the gdp yet revenues are only 15%. that's not good for anyone. i think the president has a balanced approach. we should get behind it and move it. also, a lot of these protests in talking to the people are against the financial ruin or disaster that led to the recession. we passed in congress financial reform. they were not only eposed to it but they are stopping the implementation of it. >> as divisive as anything else. they only call it class warfare when we fight back, when regular people say, enough is enough. you have people sitting on a white hot stove for three years waiting for some of these policies to make a difference. now, people are starting to say, listen, we want to see something different. you do see a small number of people who are doing well. these are people who have

benefited from the tax breaks and bailouts. they should pay higher taxes now, pay the country back to help the rest of us get going. >> it is not just people talking. most of the economists are coming out. >> very good point. >> and saying, we have to act now. we need short-term spending or we will be in a double-dip recession. ravini and other economists are saying, if we don't act, we will be in a double dip. two nobel laureates came out in support of the president's plan. >> i think when you get someone like joseph stieglet saying, i am going to come down and talk with you and help you figure this out. he is a brilliant mind for our country and for our world really. just because he is there -- i think he is so smart. the fact he would say out of his busy time, writing books, that he is going to go down there and say, i want to engage with you,

i think that's amazing. >> what do you think about this argument that's made which i quite frankly agree with that essentially because of the way the bailout worked and because of the dispar ret impact in terms of the growth, that it is only fair and wise and proper that we have a millionaire surcharge or some higher taxes. >> this is the socialist racket. we say, we bailed them out. we have money so we get to put more rules or taxes on them. that makes sense. we are going to control what the banks can pay their executives. because we are controlling that, that might hurt their business. then, we bail them out again. so it is this vicious cycle. i would go back in time if i could and not do the bailout. one of the arguments i made to conservatives was this point, once you have the government propping up these banks, happened before tarp, with the existence of the federal reserve and federal deposit insurance, et cetera. >> are you many could go out against the fdic? >> are you making an fdic --

>> i wouldn't have created. wurns they have the taxpayer money, it gives the liberals the excuse to try to regulate. i wouldn't put a tax on it. i would try to build down the bailouts that still exist. >> what we are going to do in the the bailouts. >> thank you. >> end the bailouts, and the reason the ratings of some of our top banks fell is because we finally convinced the rating agencies that we're not going to bail them out again, and i've got -- >> let's not talk about the rating agencies. uh-oh. >> if you're going to cite the ratings agencies, they consider bailouts very likely. give dodd-frank credit. now -- >> it is exactly these reforms the republican leadership are blocking, not implementing, and not letting the reforms goethe forth. in addition, why don't they have a hearing on the president's jobs bill and their proposal? let's have an american debate instead of just saying no to moving. i think it's incumbent upon all

of us in america to listen to what the protesters have to say. >> and -- >> and act on it. >> congressman carolyn maloney, i cannot thank you enough for coming here this early to see us. >> thank you. good to see you. good to be on your show. >> if you're wondering how wall street occupies wall street you're going to love the clips we play coming up after this. hey, check it out. she's using the mr. clean magic eraser bath scrubber.

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naomi klein, let me plug for anyone who has not read "the shock jock," listen to me, you need to receipt it. back at the table. i want to play you all a clip. cnn's new host erin burnett obviously thinks she guess one over on the wall street guys when she suggesting taxpayers made money off the wall street bailout, take a look. >> what do you do? >> a developer. >> unemployed or employed? >> it's called occupy wall street. >> do you know taxpayers

actually made money on the wall street bailout? >> i was unary of that. >> not on gm, but they did on the wall street part of the bailout. does that make you feel differently? >> i would have to do more research about it. >> if i were right, it might. >> oh, sure. >> okay. why is this clip so frustrating? let me just say on the substance it is completely immaterial whether we made money on the recapitalization through t.a.r.p. because most of the bailing out was done by the federal reserve. a $13 trillion expansion, and like i said on the student debt thing, students didn't get 0% loans from the federal reserve. look, everybody's who's squeezed and can't pay bills whether eer on "the sopranos" or want extra time. usually you get a baseball bat or a declined loan. what we -- the talking point that expiates the sichb sins of immateri

immaterial. what do you think of the clip? >> i was going to say, the cleavage really bothers me. i'm sorry. you know what. i'm sorry. why do you have to do that? i just -- >> sorry, sorry. >> i won't be mean. the top tweet on the occupy wall street bread for the past few days has been prediction. this occupation will last longer than erin burnett's show. now, i don't know if this is revenge -- >> picking fights. >> no. i think it profoundly misunderstands the nature of the outrage. it's an outrage at the double standards, also the nature's t.a.r.p. the fact if you're going to hand the bank $700 billion you might ask for something in return and it was the fact that it was just, you know -- it was just free with no strings attached and after that we tried to put strings and that didn't work. >> if you think you've heard everything there is to say about steve jobs, that's why i've been

wanting to get our next guest on since before we launched the show. "the passion of steve jobs" coming up. the postal service is critical to our economy-- delivering mail, medicine and packages. yet they're closing thousands of offices, slashing service, and want to lay off over 100,000 workers. the postal service is recording financial losses, but not for reasons you might think. the problem ? a burden no other agency or company bears. a 2006 law that drains 5 billion a year from post-office revenue while the postal service is forced to overpay billions more into federal accounts. congress created this problem, and congress can fix it. do you have an irregular heartbeat called atrial fibrillation, or afib, that's not caused by a heart valve problem? are you taking warfarin to reduce your risk of stroke caused by a clot?

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from new york, i'm chris hayes. if you missed our first hour that's why you should make friends with someone who owns a dvr. we're not done talking about occupying wall street but are truly lucky to have an amazing voice from other big stories. the wurone-man show opens next week. kind enough to join us. tim and maria also with us. here's a quote attributed to president obama on the passing of steve jobs that reads, we haven't just lost a great innovator, lost a person who had his stuff together and knew what

was going on. made up from "the onion." last american who knew what the -- [ muted ] he was doing dies. i loved that piece. it captures a feeling that here was, as dan was saying, we've had tremendous failure. one person who at the very least seemed super competent at what he was doing. >> oh, yeah. steve jobs is a visionary who was impossible to deal with as a human being. be clear about that. impossible to deal with, but the thing that was most admirable about him was that he was incredibly good at his job. you know? like that aura of confidence that surrounded him was something that people really treasured in the tech industry. >> and really rooted in, i think it was rooted in actual confidence. right? people will sometimes talk about the reality distortion field that surrounded steve jobs, rooted in the fact, he actually turned that company around? >> the one person in technology who could edit, knew how to

design a device, like fashion designers have a point of view, and the rest of the industry really takes whatever steve jobs just did and sort of like, i think it has less buttons. make it have less buttons and photocopy what he's doing. they've really lost something. >> had you a great op-ed in the "new york times" talking about the steve jobs legacy and some of the labor practices that go into making apple products and you talk about steve jobs dislike of nostalgia. i want to play a clip you hammer home on this exact point. >> steve jobs has always been the enemy of nostalgia. always understood that the future requires sacrifice. steve jobs is never afraid to knife the baby. i'll give you an example. a couple years ago apple's best selling product, best selling, was the ipod mini. it was awesome. it was an ipod, but it was mini. everybody loved the ipod mini.

but one day steve jobs is doing what of his keynotes and he said, today the ipod mini is no more. it was like, no! don't take it away, steve! what are you doing? i give you the ipod nano. the nano is smaller than mini! yeah! it's everything i wanted! i'm going to lose it even faster. >> that is a little taste of the agony and ecstasy of steve jobs. this nostalgia he was the enemy of has, i think it would be fair to say, encased our. herating his death. understandably, it's tragic when someone dies early and obviously he was a towering figure, but do you think it's occluding what we're actually seeing steve jobs' legacy in reality? >> absolutely. but he would have been occluded

in any case. a huge part of his legacy is tied up in how this devices were made, but we'll do anything we cannot to think about how our devices are made or what our relationship is with china. the truth is, it feels overwhelming how people are defying him. remember, almost all of us have been having a personal design relationship with steve jobs for decades. these devices have become foe intimate. we had a relationship with our phones we didn't have with any other devices a few years ago. i mean, i have it in my bed. i have it in my bed. >> mine. >> the great piece, a commencement address that appeared in "the times" over the summer. it's not about apple products, but it is -- it's about this whole phenomenon. he talks how he's just gotten a new blackberry and he talks about the u bi ubiquity.

ieldealized and we can throw th away and they never complain and he's arguing that the fact that these are intimate relationships, and how many times even sitting with a bnch of friends and everybody's looking at their iphones and you make a joke, but it's awkward, because it's really scary. >> i've never hit that moment on the show, but i do worry about that. like, excuse me -- >> so you know what was really interesting to me, to see the reaction of my son, whose name, full name, by the way [ speaking in foreign language ] that he woulds spe be sitting there tal about steve jobs saying, i'm so sad. i know this is dangerous, but it's like his jfk moment. you know? and for him to lose this person. my husband, who is an artist.

my daughter as well. it's a big loss in my family. i'm not a techie. okay? i'm like everybody else. i love technology. it never worked for me ever. i have the ipad, the blackberry, it never since. so i really think that the whole mythology of technology liberating you and all these people on the commercials -- >> that's the part of steve jobs he sold so well. in addition to being competent, he's like barnum. sold us a future where technology actually work. i've never been to that place. i'd really like to go. >> one more announcement, one more product away. >> really close. >> that's the other thing. two aspects of the part of apple that you talk about, michelle, we don't want to talk about, you know, when talking about his legacy. one is this intense planned ob s obs lessens captured in the clip. replace it with a new thing.

i was at the apple store the other day with all three apple products. my laptop, literally melting down. my ipad and iphone. when i got called up to the q, i dropped my iphone and ipad. this is like a -- i am now -- like completely in the grip of this addiction. this is my, like, rock bottom moment. the other part of it, it's connected, is the manufacturer, the conditions under which the -- products manufactured. you went to actually one of the big factories that makes these products called foxcom. what did you find there? >> i went to southern china. shenzhen and people are not aware. the city larger and denser than new york city that sprung up over the last 30 years, and in that place is the forges where all of our devices come from, and i went and i -- there are journalists digging in, because most of them work for

corporations, journalism visas and are monitored, i pretended to be an american businessman and said i just wanted to try to build connections for my factories. when you're a prospective client they'll show you anything you want to see. so i spent weeks and weeks just researching and interviewing people, and saw horrendous labor conditions. >> the irony here is, i remember apple getting tons of credit when they quit the chamber of commerce in protest, because the chamber of commerce was opposes the regulations and apple quit. now, apple would not be affected by u.s. climate change regulations and they're not lobbying for climate change regulations over in china. it's one of those things. and i actually appreciate apple because they did almost no lobbying relative to other companies. they didn't even have a political action committee, but in this case, it was a p.r. stunt. green washing is what liberals simply call it. you're at green but your manufacturing over in china instead of in the u.s. >> isn't just labor. the environmental scandals are

huge in china. a huge report came out at the end of august, the "financial times" reported on it really well. cancer clusters around their factories and people are sending their kids to study in other provinces because they don't want them near these factories. you have the labor record and you have most notoriously that factor where there's a net because of so many suicide of young women. >> foxcom. >> also the environmental piece. >> did he ever talk about this or acknowledge -- >> oh, no. >> i didn't know about this until i read your piece. the fact there are people dying while they are producing -- with my son, this is what i'll be talking about. a connection. >> deeper than that, jobs didn't talk about, actually a whole branch of journalism, technology journalism. this story has been sitting in front of them a decade. i've been talking about it over a year and -- walt mossberg came in, saw my show. i confronted him after my show.

>> for the "wall street journal" and he is the steve jobs of technology reporters. he is as iconic in the world of technology reporters at steve jobs was in the tech world. >> yeah. i called him out there and nothing. nothing, from the "new york times." david, radio silence on all of these issues. >> also the minerals. >> seems to be okay to talk about this now that steve jobs -- >> of course tr is. >> we will talk more about the legacy of steve jobs with the one and only mike daisy. so glad you're here and we will be right back right after this.o . touchups. glamming it up... it's all part of my job. with olay, taking it all off... that's my cleansers job. challenge what's possible with olay pore minimizing scrub. it cleans deep down to the pore to remove 2x more dirt and makeup for skin that's fresh and naturally beautiful... even without makeup. but tonight, is definitely a glam night. [ cheers and applause ]

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we are back with mike daisy, actor and monologuist, i guess. >> monologuist.

>> i don't have a lot of those in my teleprompter. a show opens in new york next week. if you're here, absolutely, absolutely see it. you've toured around the country. are you going around after new york at all? >> hoping to sit down leer in new york for a long time. it's been all over the world. seen by over 50,000 people so far. it's interesting, because the theater doesn't reach as many people as the show does. we have an opportunity in the room to connect with people, and unlike books. you know that they actually heard what you had to say. >> right. what is the reaction, what's the reaction been like when people -- because i saw it in washington and the crowd was clearly, totally with you, and it's extremely funny as we saw from the clip. extremely funny. then a very effecting -- you sort of implicate the viewer to action in the end. >> yes, i do. >> what does the response been? >> it's been really intense. you know. from people like steve wazniak,

steve's co-founder. said he was changed and would never see the world the same way again. i thought it was very brave of him, in his position of power with respect to apple to actually comment on those thing. there have been thousands of people in the bay area and hundreds of apple employees, many tell me something i hear again and again, which is, i had no idea. people in design teams at apple say, listen, we create prototype designs. we send them to shenzhen, they get back. i had no idea. these are the people designing the beautiful objects. we're so carved off from how things are made. >> isn't it that this technology is now our window to the world and we're a global society and yet in the most basic way we don't know. >> that's right. >> i mean, i always feel that way. like, people are overwhelmed with stuff, and then there are basic things you just don't know. you don't have the time to think

about. so i just want to say thank you for bringing it up. >> i think we feel like we don't know because our culture is a huge investment in denialism. often you say we're ignorant. you can claim ignorance to a certainly point. after that, the whole culture designs. i talk the funny segment. the china segment. i feel the audience. you can feel them -- their arms close and the whole show begin as pitch battle just to open. they don't have to agree to do anything. just admit there's something we need to talk about. >> this is what lifestyle branding means. it means we are deriving our identity from a consumer product. right? not from our -- >> that is a lie. a complete lie. i don't know why you would say that. it's completely not true. >> the products come under attack or criticism. you feel personally criticized. you know, you feel under personal attack, and -- >> yeah, a signaling device. the irony is, watch the original

ipad commercials. what were they doing? reading the -- the guy who they, reading a ted kennedy book. >> a ted kennedy book. >> and searching for good cafes in paris. okay? this is not advertising to me of the "washington examiner" editorial page. advertising to the viewers of msnbc. the readers of chris hayes, too. so that makes it even more ironic. that this is not being sold to, well, i'm a free trade capitalist guy bp this is being sold to, i'm sensitive enough to read ted kennedy's book in a cafe in paris on my ipad. >> i've had that experience. >> and my first book "no logo" in large part about the rise of the lifestyle brands and the way in which these brand co-opted revolutionary industry. apple first among them. images of gandhi think different, images of martin luther king i think they were sued for think different and the ads started getting jammed. a parody, like a kid throwing a rock. it's really different.

>> then you have to remember, like, that imagery that became part of jobs identity, too, the culture movement. he embraced that despite the fact his record shows nothing of the sort. >> the criticism is fair because of that. if you are going to co-op the language of revolutionary movements of the past, then it's fair comment to talk about labor rights and environmental standards about your product. >> before i let you go, your last show was actually about the financial crisis. >> yes. >> and financial crisis in cargo cults. >> yes. >> and it wove them together in a remarkable way, and i wanted to play this little bit of sound from "occupy wall streeptt" the iconic chant you hear around the country if you go to any of these actions. [ chanting ]

>> that's happening down on wall street, the chant, we are the 9 99%. you're a social critic. what do you make of what's going on with the "occupy wall street." >> fundamentally the thing, one of the things that unites, talking about apple and steve jobs, talking about occupy wall street is that we yearn to have a human voice, and i think that the protests that are happening, a lot of it is people's desire to actually be heard outside a consumerist context. like when i do the jobs show, people of hungry sometimes to know, what devices should i get rid of and what do i need to buy. i care more about what you do with your life than what you do or don't buy. people feel disempowered i think because they've been thought entirely as machines for the buying of products and now

they're in the streets saying, the people. >> tell you one of the first criticisms i heard among my staff at my small nonprofit media company was, what? so they're all protesting, and they're saying, they're disenfranchise but they all got their iphones. what's up with the iphones? >> someone on "national review" wrote a piece, we should have kevin on actually. a smart guy. wrote a piece. all the protesters were down there, talking about steve jobs, down there macs and iphones and these devices are all the products of capitalism and the entrepreneurship and the ingenuity capitalism brings. and the capitalism they have would be absent this. >> and buying a product includes a full endorsement that product represents, and i think it's possible to appreciate the design and appreciate the utility of a product and still believe that the people who make those products should be treated humanely and that they shouldn't

be polluting the environment around them. >> that's crazy talk. >> but it is frustrating for someone to look out at all of this anti-free market talk and to understand, a, a lot of -- i mean, you see a lot of it on msnbc. owned by ge and com cast. no companies spend more time on lobbying than ge and com cast. any rib lal site, health care company, goldman sachs. liberals complain this part of what's compromising. why you're not getting a real liberal voice. from a conservative perspective, now how far do you want to go? i believe in a free market. that makes us all more prosp prosperous. are you lg, the guys in d.c., are you willing to upend that? and people live, we all live better, because the profit motive has driven us to make our society better.

the reason poor people are better than most countries. they feed us, clothe us and help us -- >> poor people are betting here because we exporting the manufacturing under horrendous conditions that would be illegal here there. >> people have jobs -- >> you can give people jobs with humane work conditions. >> dispute what you say. more and more in this time in the united states, this notion that the middle class or poor people here are doing okay. i don't think so. i think there are stories we don't hear continuously about hunger, about deep homelessness, what i'm working on, immigrant detention centers, invisible. >> that's the government -- >> in general this notion that we're like, okay, they're -- >> let me bring it back around to, you hear this argument a lot, right? which is that the u.s., because of its free market system produces tremendous prosperity, cascades down and we don't have people at the level of say, the

congo or in shenzhen china and one of the things remarkable about my show and the point you just made is that there is this either/or set up that's not true. you can have manufacturing in china. the chinese should have jobs. they should have jobs. there's nothing wrong with china manufacturing things but those people should be able to take work breaks and join a union that have a voice and ventilation and not poisoned by cancer clusters. and you point out on the show, a detail i never thought of. they stand and do the same representative motion over and over. you don't think about, what would it mean? you do very well in the show. what would it mean to do the same prescribed small motion for 12 hours a day with no break? and it's an intense thing and one of the things you see when unionization, collective bargains happening, they're not health requests, work requests. requesting about, i cannot do -- the first thing we want to do,

not stand on this line. if you go a factory. i'd autoworkers organized, you don't see it. the most intense, the most profound, crushing part of this work is exactly this kind of repetition. >> that's 99%. i take that back to what's happening in terms of occupy wall street. essentially, the labor movement in this country, which had so many gains, every worker in this country knows, across the board, that those gains are being scaled back. so it really is an international, global, worker -- oh, my god, did i just say that -- >> maria hosa collected her last paycheck. the show called "the agony and ecstasy of steve jobs." great show. i can't recommend it enough. we'll be back. uh, it is, yeah, it's a chevy volt. so what are you doing at a gas station?

well it still takes gas to go farther. but you're not getting gas. true. not this time. uh, don't have to gas up very often. so you have to go to the bathroom? no. yes you do. thought these were electric? yes, it's a uh, a chevy volt. so what are you doing at a gas station? i was 18 years old before i had my first fresh bun. the invention that i came up with is the hot dog ez bun steamer. steam is the key to a great hot dog. i knew it was going to be a success. the invention was so simple that i knew i needed to protect it. my name is chris schutte and i got my patent, trademark and llc on legalzoom. [ shapiro ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side.

uh yeah, it's a chevy volt. so you're just here rubbing our nose in the fact that you don't have to buy gas? just plug in and go? that make you feel better? well i still pay about $1.50 a day in electricity... on average. you know he's just here to use the bathroom. customers only. no gas, no bathroom. ok, i'll buy gas. [ father ] whoa, what are you doing? thought these were electric? van jones of rebuild the dream and formerly a special

adviser to the white house on green jobs is back. and the shock doctor is in. maria and tim carney, "the washington examiner." i want to talk about the issue fox news found what they think can bring down the president. it is solyndra, formerly obscure -- snoring. it's a bankrupt solar panel manufacturer in fremont, california, and if you're watching fox news you definitely heard of them. as of last week fox gave the solyndra story almost three times more coverage than all other tv news outlets combined. there you see it on the graph. the company which made a new kind of solar panel, considered a can't miss investment by private injechlts including the waltons who run walmart. received a $53 a million loan under the stimulus program. e-mails released showed the head the program and obama political pointee pushing to expedite the loan, wanted it to come through and then this was almost certainly the case, i will say,

having done reporting on this, that they wanted to have these concrete things to show from the recovery act. everyone saying the recovery act's not working and e-mails saying i need an event to show shovels and a bulldozer. we did this, it came out. the price of solar power plummeted. solyndra went bankrupt. 1% of the portfolio but perfect for conservatives. two things they hate that are keshgted. the obama administration and the hate of green energy. republicans in congress are piling on, demanding all white house communications related to the department's loan including, unprecedented, the president's own e-mails, never requested before. so i want to talk about the sort of stern -- that's happening over this. the deeper question. you know about the green jobs. i'm going to play -- >> special -- >> got a little thing out of control. the czar thing. recall from such scandals as --

so you were the green jobs special adviser. and let me embody the conservative critique for a moment and -- rather than letting the actual -- no. but i will say this. i'll say-doctor. >> go left? >> this is -- yeah. he'll get to respond after i play his part. you know, there is -- they say, this is what happens. what happens when you have the government coming in and pick winners, have them subsidize your favorite liberal with your green energy that you liberals love and you have taxpayer money support and pick winners, this is what happens. we end up, cronyism and you end up footing the bill for a defunct company that never worked. what say you? >> what say me? the green jobs. first of all, look, if you think about this, this is a bush program. this is a bush loan program, which they say from the very beginning. number one. number two, with a 99% success rate. which means, if you're trying to find innovation, it probably

hasn't been risky enough, if you want to be honest about it. why would you do loan guarantees? they're to leverage in private capital. it's not government paying for it. the government going first to leverage in private capital. so part of the thing that people don't understand about this story, you say the price of solar panels plummeted. why? why? because against our $2.4 billion program, china came in with $33 billion, because they wanted to flood the world with cheap solar panels to kill off american industry. so they could later on push the price up. this is not about free markets. this is about mercantilism from china. you shouldn't be mad at president bush or obama for trying to stand up our solar companies. mad at china for trying to knock them down and congress doing nothing about it. that's the real story. >> 30 seconds. do we have -- we have the sterns clip of sterns saying we -- will you rack that while tim makes his point? >> yes. this is not about free markets. this is about government

subsidizing politically favored businesses, and directing -- and about the u.s. government, which directs capital to who has political favor which is different from what the market does. the market directs capital to what a bunch of different people think is most promising, and if i was going up against an industry that was going to be subsidized so much by china i would get out of that industry. this is part ever the problem. the government -- >> surrender. >> no. not surrender. have we surrendered watches to the swiss because they make more watches? no. i want to correct something that was said. this was not technically a bush loan program. the energy bill, obama supported as a senator that supported this program. >> sure a loan guarantee. it's different. >> then the, there was a lobbyist named steve mcbee, former appropriations staffer who went during the appropriations process for the stimulus bill and said loosen the standards. companies are asked to put up a little money before they get loan guarantees.

they can't. once they loosen that standard, weren't of the lobbying clients solyndra got the first one. you left out a detail, steve spinner, democratic operative who pushed this was a fund-raiser for obama before he was at d.o.e. and his wife working for a law firm. it's not a talking point. nobody seems -- >> let me clarify so we're clear on the fact pattern. steve spinner was running the program. he formerly did a bungler for the president, raised a lot of money. his wife at the law firm, not on the actual case and a law firm with hundreds of attorneys. huge law firm. not like his wife was working on the case, just to be clear, but, yes, it was the same firm. we're in the weeds's solyndra right now. i want to play this clip, sterns bite. a republican congress person basically making the point tim made at the beginning which is, look, we can note go up against china's industrial policy on exactly this issue. let's take a look. >> we can't compete with china to make solar panels and wind

turbines. >> i heard there was a republican member of congress whose engaging in oversight on this and despite all in the past have the been supportive of this loan guarantee program, he concluded, we can't compete against china when it comes to solar energy. well, you know what? i don't buy that. i'm not going to surrender to other countries technological leads that could end up determining whether or not we're building a strong middle class in this country. >> see, that's the president at the press conference this week responding to -- pumping your fist? >> because this is american technology. this is -- this is what i don't get. we, in this country, under jimmy carter, we were the people who broke through and figured out modern solar panels, modern wind turbine, this is our stuff. jimmy carter put solar panels on the roof. ronald reagan took them down,

put them in the garbage can. germany and other countries took them out. we freed to not go from importing dirtying in from the middle east to importing clean energy from china and skipping the jobs in the middle and that's what republicans want to do. we will be right back after this. ugh, great. you may be going up, but those roots are bringing you down! try root touch-up by nice 'n easy. to extend the life of your color. nice 'n easy has 50% more shades, so you can find your seamless match. with root touch-up by nice 'n easy. ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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but with their raymond james financial advisor, they had prepared for even the unthinkable. and they danced. see what a raymond james advisor can do for you. welcome back. we are talking about, what we were talking about? green energy, fox news' attack on the president or solyndra. i want to play you a little sound that comes from a column, a great column, written by our esteemed guest tim carney at the "washington examiner" writing, i would commend to everyone and to the liberals in the audience, because tim has a unique take on big business and its relationship to big government. and this is in the hearing about solyndra, subcommittee hearing on solyndra and they're talking about solyndra and this loan guarantee program and another congress persson brings up the fact there are other subsidies to other kind of energy companies and republican phil

gingrey of georgia takes offense. take a look. >> talk about loan guarantees? the southern company has received a loan guarantee 15 times larger than solyndra and if we're going to re-examine whether or not that's a good investment after fukushima, after the earthquake, near the north plant, let's have that hearing. >> i take a little exception to that comparison. southern company owns mississippi power, alabama power, georgia power, among others, and employs literally thousands of people. so this loan guarantee to start up two additional reactors at plant vogel by the southern company, comparing that loan guarantee to this loan guarantee for a company like solyndra is a little disingenious. >> i am in tremendous debt to tim for pointing that out. you quoted that in your article. a perfect example of your subsidy is crony capitalism. my subsidy, these are job

creators, alabama and mississippi. look at the ledger, most subsidies are going to those sorts of things. >> depends if you count just dollarwise. barack obama did create a loan guarantee program for nuclear power plants, and if you count subsidies to coal and oil because of special tax rates they do get more. green energy, though, exists because of subsidies and those can exist without subsidies, i wish they would. part of my response, why can't we compete on solar? compete with china? it's a money-losing business. why should we do that? if it's money-losing, be more dependant on the cronyism than the power that is actually profitable. >> i'll go first and then i'll come over to -- >> we have to talk about the oil companies who, as my friend bill says, the most profitable companies in the history of money, exxon/mobil makeses 20ds billion in a single quarter and these companies are still

collecting subsidies. the reason why we are subsidizing green energy is because of climate change. we will not meet the goals tt science demands, unless there is serious government intervention in the market. you know what? if you look at the polling on climate change there is a massive partisan divide. 70% to 75% of democrats believe in it. overwhelming scientific consensus agree with 98% of scientists that fossil, green house gas emissions are warming the planet. look on the other side, and among republicans, particularly people who identify as tea party members, around 30%. why? not because of the science. because of the consequences of the science. because they understand that if they recognize that this is true, then their ideology falls to pieces at their feet. protecting to protect their

world view ideology and using the solyndra scandal to protect -- not to deal with cronyism. i think there is a whiff of cronyism in this, but to attack an industry that represents this challenge to their world view. >> let me intervene a second. i want to put another thing on the table, which is going through the looking glass to another instance of the white house and an energy company. another set of e-mails and another set of energy interests and for folks on the right saying you and your green energy are so cozy, this is the opposite. green activists angry at the obama administration for being too cozy with big oil. the other side of the same phenomenon. a pipeline, keystone pipeline stretching from alberta canada to the gulf of mexico. the largest pipeline outside of russia and china carrying a ton of oil, and the oil coming through is particularly crude kind of oil. comes from the tar sands, and activists don't want this to be built. calling it a 1,700 fuse to the

largest carbon bomb on the planet. obviously, if we're going to stop climate change we can't be putting more carbon into the air? right? someone telling you they going to go on a diet but first going to build a pie room in their house, right? you would tell them it was a -- the first thing they should do, not build the pie room. right? >> or go on your show. >> or go on my show if i'm eating pastries. the big issue, the state department has to affirmatively make a finding of national interests. green late to. say it's okay. can you do this, and the state department has a process that they're managing about whether they're going to decide if it's okay to do that and what we have found from four-year requests has people in the state department, particularly the embassy in canada are e-mailing back and forth with a lobbyist for the company that wants to build the pipeline who also used to be a hillary clinton campaign official basically saying, go do it, get on it. >> phil paul. >> right. here's a question. isn't this the other side of tim's indictment? if you take the invichlt

seriously and don't say let's not play favorites, isn't this the problem with the mix of government in business? >> listen, if the concern is cronyism and that sort of thing and certainly given the threat to the planet from this particular pipeline, all that should be above reproach. i think the facts are just coming out, a report on it today. i have to reserve judgment on it. if we're just talking about cronyism and the government being captured by big interest, there's no problem. the problem is when people then use that to naomi's point, make a broader indictment, america can't be a partner to innovation. anti-thetic's to american capitalism where american government was a partner to american business in making sure we could lead on key and critical industries. suddenly out of nowhere, and i think naomi's got a right, for very -- this is the exception. on energy, we give the biggest polluters in the world making the most money in the world all

kinds of subsidies and support but when a new paradigm emerges only in energy, noplace else, they don't. that's wrong. >> we're going to talk about more of this. maria has something to say. i'll get to you after we come right back after a break. any sec---o-m-g dad, you are not meeting him looking like that. i look fine. just a little trouble with a bargain brand cooking spray. quick, hide yourself behind the butter. do i embarrass you? yeah. i told you like a gajillion times to use new and improved pam so you'd come out in one piece like those muffins up there. look i gotta go. have fun cupcake! i will totally die if you call me that in public ever again. pam helps you like pull it off even better. guaranteed. until i tried this.better. nothing helped me beat arthritis pain. it's salonpas. pain relief that works at the site of pain... up to 12 hours. salonpas.

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a quick update from alex. a cult setting occupy a firestorm of debate. in the 11:00 a.m. hour we'll talk about this. and amanda knox talking about the case. now that she's free, more questions about her innocence? talking about the legacy of steve jobs this hour. one report suts he left years of plans for apple's future. true? we'll talk to a man who worked directly with jobs at apple exactly about that. >> thanks, alex. we were just talking about green energy and subsidies. maria, wanted to make a point.

i cut you off to go to break. >> i had an interview with pbs for jennifer granhold who wrote this book, the idea, to save michigan with green jobs, and there was a lot of input in certain areas and in certain companies, and it's complicated, i guess, is the only thing i can come away with it from. it's really complicated. i think this is where independent journalism is so important. where you can dig deep, and try to expose the levels of complication, because, as you were saying, naomi, if you just look at the reality, climate change is real. we have to prepare for that, but how do you plan on that? how do you actually take an industry like solar power and make it work in the united states? and it takes a tremendous amount of planning and frankly government intervention -- >> all of these dirty words. like planning come back. regulation.

actually say no to -- you've got to get the money from somewhere. so polluters maybe should pay. this is -- i went to the heartland conference, the annual climate change denial conference in washington, d.c. this year, and you know, they talk about -- climate change being a marxist plot. why? because in order to respond to climate change, their ideology is challenged. so it's not a marxist plot but it is a profound challenge to people who believe in deregulated capitalism as the solution to everything. >> there is -- >> i want to talk -- >> something happened today. >> this is the thing about solyndra. i do believe there is -- there is some cronyism at play there, but if that's your real concern, then you should be screaming bloody murder about the keystone pipeline. not just because there are seven lobbyists with links, former links to the clinton and obama

campaigns who are now campaigning for the company, transcanada. o'i should say i'm canadian. >> we knew when you say soare. >> but now in the "new york times" today what we're learning is that they -- the state department had to conduct an environmentist report. had the report came out it was quite shocking because they came to the conclusion there was no sig cant environment impact of the pipeline. i was really surprised to learn this. i learned this about the day i got arrested along with more than 1,200 other people, first time arrested in my life. i felt it a responsibility as a canadian, and how can you say that a pipeline that would double of capacity of the dirtiest fossil fuel in the planet emitted per barrel, that a regular barrel of crude? turns out that the company that did the environmental assessment was outsourced is a company

called entrix and weren't of their top five clients is transcanada. >> let me make sure everyone understands this. the company that wants to build the pipeline hire add company to do the environmental impact survey. the company they hired came back and said, it's all good. >> it's all good. and transcanada was given the opportunity to vet the company that would do the environmental answersment report. >> we've got to the go, and we will be right back. did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. yeah, maybe not. v8 v-fusion juice gives them a full serving of vegetables plus a full serving of fruit.

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we are back. van jones with the american dream movement. a short amount of time. a little update what you are up to. >> sure. this week you have the, finally, occupy wall street broke through, also, that was in new york. also in washington, d.c., we had the take back the american dream summit. more than 2,000 progressive activists were here. 200 organizations and basically came together and said, listen, this is the moment to begin the progressive fight back. call it the american ougautumn.

the arab spring, this is the american autumn. make wall street pay. between september 17th when the occupation started and november 17th when we're going to have protests across the country, major, major re-birth of the progressive movement, and we're going to run for office. this is news to a lot of your people. we decided we're going to run at progressive american dream candidates, 2,000 progressives across the country in 2012. naomi klein, writing a book an climate change and clean energy. everybody bit as exceptional, and maria hosa, lost and detention aired october 18th. pbs frontline. check it out. and tim carney, you should be reading in the "washington examiner," my guests today. fantastic discussion. thank you for joining us today for "up." coming up today, "weekends

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